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	<title>Comments on: Stoke, Stoke, Stoke!</title>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5756</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5756</guid>
		<description>Grudging admiration is how I would describe my feelings regarding those best sellers.  Much of the writing is downright &lt;i&gt;bad&lt;/i&gt; (some of the descriptions in &lt;i&gt;The DaVinci Code&lt;/i&gt; were painful) but the authors do enough right with hooks, chapters, teasers, etc. to keep a majority of the public turning pages and popularizing the book through word of mouth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grudging admiration is how I would describe my feelings regarding those best sellers.  Much of the writing is downright <i>bad</i> (some of the descriptions in <i>The DaVinci Code</i> were painful) but the authors do enough right with hooks, chapters, teasers, etc. to keep a majority of the public turning pages and popularizing the book through word of mouth.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5754</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5754</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a sucker for English public school stories, so Harry Potter is a whomping good read for me.  Having said that, I recently read a commentary which took apart the first seven pages or so of Book 1 and pointed out all the details which figured prominently in other later books -- that is the kids all love the complicated details, without realizing that they&#039;re being set up to swallow the plot developments later on.  Even hack writers can be entertaining from time to time.

&quot;Must&quot; you read HP?  Hell no.  There are plenty of books I&#039;m &quot;supposed&quot; to have read that I haven&#039;t.  Or refuse to like no matter how many people try explaining how &quot;important&quot; James Joyce is as a writer.  Movies, too.

As for The Andromeda Strain -- gotta love a novel whose opening is: (a) a one sentence paragraph and (b) that sentence is incomplete.  &quot;A man with binoculars.&quot;  Let&#039;s break the rules so we can establish a hook...  In 1969, millions of people wanted to know what than man saw - and why a book about a disease had binoculars... (grin)

Dr. Phil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a sucker for English public school stories, so Harry Potter is a whomping good read for me.  Having said that, I recently read a commentary which took apart the first seven pages or so of Book 1 and pointed out all the details which figured prominently in other later books &#8212; that is the kids all love the complicated details, without realizing that they&#8217;re being set up to swallow the plot developments later on.  Even hack writers can be entertaining from time to time.</p>
<p>&#8220;Must&#8221; you read HP?  Hell no.  There are plenty of books I&#8217;m &#8220;supposed&#8221; to have read that I haven&#8217;t.  Or refuse to like no matter how many people try explaining how &#8220;important&#8221; James Joyce is as a writer.  Movies, too.</p>
<p>As for The Andromeda Strain &#8212; gotta love a novel whose opening is: (a) a one sentence paragraph and (b) that sentence is incomplete.  &#8220;A man with binoculars.&#8221;  Let&#8217;s break the rules so we can establish a hook&#8230;  In 1969, millions of people wanted to know what than man saw &#8211; and why a book about a disease had binoculars&#8230; (grin)</p>
<p>Dr. Phil</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5752</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 15:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5752</guid>
		<description>I want to read Jack Vance. I&#039;ve only heard good things about him. 

Strangely enough Michael Crichton made this best of Sci-fi list at spot #98: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.phobosweb.com/features/100books/top100index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Phobos Top 100 Sci-fi Books you Must Read &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to read Jack Vance. I&#8217;ve only heard good things about him. </p>
<p>Strangely enough Michael Crichton made this best of Sci-fi list at spot #98: <a href="http://www.phobosweb.com/features/100books/top100index.html" rel="nofollow">Phobos Top 100 Sci-fi Books you Must Read </a></p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5751</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5751</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the discussion on this.  I just got CCF&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Prodigal Troll&lt;/i&gt; yesterday and it looks as though he lifted chapter 2 almost verbatim from the book for the story &quot;A Democracy of Trolls.&quot;  I think the story &quot;Love and the Wayward Troll&quot; is the same for either chapter 3 or 4.  I&#039;m mostly interested in comparing the opening 1K words from the novel to the short stories to see what&#039;s added and what&#039;s cut, especially for the second one.

Gordon&#039;s header for the second story begins like this:
&lt;i&gt;You might recall meeting Maggot in &quot;A Democracy of Trolls&quot; back in our Oct/ Nov. 2002 issue. He&#039;s the human boy who was raised by a band of trolls.&lt;/i&gt;

That helps to put the story in perspective right off the bat.

My stubborness in refusing the Potter actually has to do with the over-the-top marketing of it, which seems to have cooled in recent years.  And as a general rule I get annoyed when I&#039;m told by acquaintances that &quot;if you like to read, you absolute &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; read&quot; John Grishom, Michael Crichton, JK Rowling, Dan Brown, and every other flash in the pan.  I&#039;ve read all of these authors except Rowling and rate them all &quot;okay at best&quot; and wish my time had been spent reading something else.

The Jack Vance sounds interesting too.  That seems like a classic that has stood the test of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the discussion on this.  I just got CCF&#8217;s <i>The Prodigal Troll</i> yesterday and it looks as though he lifted chapter 2 almost verbatim from the book for the story &#8220;A Democracy of Trolls.&#8221;  I think the story &#8220;Love and the Wayward Troll&#8221; is the same for either chapter 3 or 4.  I&#8217;m mostly interested in comparing the opening 1K words from the novel to the short stories to see what&#8217;s added and what&#8217;s cut, especially for the second one.</p>
<p>Gordon&#8217;s header for the second story begins like this:<br />
<i>You might recall meeting Maggot in &#8220;A Democracy of Trolls&#8221; back in our Oct/ Nov. 2002 issue. He&#8217;s the human boy who was raised by a band of trolls.</i></p>
<p>That helps to put the story in perspective right off the bat.</p>
<p>My stubborness in refusing the Potter actually has to do with the over-the-top marketing of it, which seems to have cooled in recent years.  And as a general rule I get annoyed when I&#8217;m told by acquaintances that &#8220;if you like to read, you absolute <i>must</i> read&#8221; John Grishom, Michael Crichton, JK Rowling, Dan Brown, and every other flash in the pan.  I&#8217;ve read all of these authors except Rowling and rate them all &#8220;okay at best&#8221; and wish my time had been spent reading something else.</p>
<p>The Jack Vance sounds interesting too.  That seems like a classic that has stood the test of time.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schoffstall</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5749</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schoffstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5749</guid>
		<description>No, the HPatSS chapters couldn&#039;t be independently published; except for the first, they depend on worldbuilding and character development that has come before, and until the end, they don&#039;t address the overarching problem of the novel. However, each is self-contained, in that introduces a problem, puts the characters at risk, complicates the situation, then lets the characters solve the problem. Thus, each chapter ends on a sense of resolution, rather than a cliffhanger.

Another example of the novel-as-a-series-of-short-stories is Jack Vance&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Eyes of the Overworld&lt;/em&gt;. It&#039;s composed of about a dozen novelettes. I don&#039;t know for sure, but I suspect each was published in a magazine when it was first written, because each contains enough background and worldbuilding that it could stand on its own; and in fact, you occasionally find these individual stories in collections of Vance stories, or general SFF anthologies. The book is a sort of picaresque, in which the anti-hero/protagonist Cugel finds himself far from home, and has to make his way back, through various dangers and adventures. You guys may recall I&#039;ve mentioned this novel before, as an example of the use of the hilarious/frustrating anti-hero, who is vastly entertaining, but whom the reader wants to strangle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the HPatSS chapters couldn&#8217;t be independently published; except for the first, they depend on worldbuilding and character development that has come before, and until the end, they don&#8217;t address the overarching problem of the novel. However, each is self-contained, in that introduces a problem, puts the characters at risk, complicates the situation, then lets the characters solve the problem. Thus, each chapter ends on a sense of resolution, rather than a cliffhanger.</p>
<p>Another example of the novel-as-a-series-of-short-stories is Jack Vance&#8217;s <em>Eyes of the Overworld</em>. It&#8217;s composed of about a dozen novelettes. I don&#8217;t know for sure, but I suspect each was published in a magazine when it was first written, because each contains enough background and worldbuilding that it could stand on its own; and in fact, you occasionally find these individual stories in collections of Vance stories, or general SFF anthologies. The book is a sort of picaresque, in which the anti-hero/protagonist Cugel finds himself far from home, and has to make his way back, through various dangers and adventures. You guys may recall I&#8217;ve mentioned this novel before, as an example of the use of the hilarious/frustrating anti-hero, who is vastly entertaining, but whom the reader wants to strangle.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5747</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5747</guid>
		<description>After book 10 of Wheel of Time I had enough.

It&#039;s a shame because I honestly think that it could&#039;ve been one of the best High Fantasy series ever written had Jordan kept it down to 6 books. Maybe 8.

I feel bad for the guy, though. He has some rare blood disease.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After book 10 of Wheel of Time I had enough.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a shame because I honestly think that it could&#8217;ve been one of the best High Fantasy series ever written had Jordan kept it down to 6 books. Maybe 8.</p>
<p>I feel bad for the guy, though. He has some rare blood disease.</p>
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		<title>By: John League</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5743</link>
		<dc:creator>John League</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5743</guid>
		<description>Maybe this is a tomayto-tomahto thing, but I think HP chapters are more episodic. That is, each portion hangs on some kind of conflict-resolution structure, but I don&#039;t think they&#039;d be satisfying as individual stories--and certainly not saleable as such. 

No one should feel any pressure to read something because &quot;you should.&quot; I&#039;m through with that, too. I have limited time to read as it is: I have no intention of surrendering any of it to something that hurts me--although I must admit that I&#039;m going to read the next Robert Jordan book because I&#039;ve invested far too much time in it to stop now. I wish I could. [Cue quiet piano music and fade to black. Voiceover: If you know someone who can&#039;t help themselves with epic fantasies, please, get help for them. Call 1-800-EPIC-HELP.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe this is a tomayto-tomahto thing, but I think HP chapters are more episodic. That is, each portion hangs on some kind of conflict-resolution structure, but I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;d be satisfying as individual stories&#8211;and certainly not saleable as such. </p>
<p>No one should feel any pressure to read something because &#8220;you should.&#8221; I&#8217;m through with that, too. I have limited time to read as it is: I have no intention of surrendering any of it to something that hurts me&#8211;although I must admit that I&#8217;m going to read the next Robert Jordan book because I&#8217;ve invested far too much time in it to stop now. I wish I could. [Cue quiet piano music and fade to black. Voiceover: If you know someone who can't help themselves with epic fantasies, please, get help for them. Call 1-800-EPIC-HELP.]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5741</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5741</guid>
		<description>See, I am not sure I agree with that John. 

I think Rowling is a plotting genius. I like how she seems to take small insignificant elements that at first just seem there for color and transforms it into integral parts of the story or a clues needed to solve a mystery that has been in front of the reader&#039;s faces this entire time. 

I also never really thought of the chapters in the first book as self-contained short stories. I just might not have noticed. Still, the techniques she used in the latter books felt like the exact same techniques she used in the first book, if not a bit more refined.

::shrugs:: Could just be me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, I am not sure I agree with that John. </p>
<p>I think Rowling is a plotting genius. I like how she seems to take small insignificant elements that at first just seem there for color and transforms it into integral parts of the story or a clues needed to solve a mystery that has been in front of the reader&#8217;s faces this entire time. </p>
<p>I also never really thought of the chapters in the first book as self-contained short stories. I just might not have noticed. Still, the techniques she used in the latter books felt like the exact same techniques she used in the first book, if not a bit more refined.</p>
<p>::shrugs:: Could just be me.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5740</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5740</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read any HP mostly because I was told I had to.  Your comments make me want to check out the first one though.

What I didn&#039;t make clear in my post is that I expected short story-esque chapters to be saleable &quot;as-is&quot; in the current marketplace...but I don&#039;t think they are.  Rowling may have written self-contained episodes for chapters, but were they published as such in short fiction venues?  That&#039;s why I looked at CCF.  The shorts &quot;A Democracy of Trolls&quot; and &quot;Love and the Wayward Troll&quot; appeared in F&amp;SF before &lt;i&gt;The Prodigal Troll&lt;/i&gt; novel was published.

Interestingly, Stephen King&#039;s original &lt;i&gt;The Gunslinger&lt;/i&gt; was five novellas that were published over the course of four years (1978-1981) in F&amp;SF.  Not sure that would work in today&#039;s market, 25 years later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read any HP mostly because I was told I had to.  Your comments make me want to check out the first one though.</p>
<p>What I didn&#8217;t make clear in my post is that I expected short story-esque chapters to be saleable &#8220;as-is&#8221; in the current marketplace&#8230;but I don&#8217;t think they are.  Rowling may have written self-contained episodes for chapters, but were they published as such in short fiction venues?  That&#8217;s why I looked at CCF.  The shorts &#8220;A Democracy of Trolls&#8221; and &#8220;Love and the Wayward Troll&#8221; appeared in F&amp;SF before <i>The Prodigal Troll</i> novel was published.</p>
<p>Interestingly, Stephen King&#8217;s original <i>The Gunslinger</i> was five novellas that were published over the course of four years (1978-1981) in F&amp;SF.  Not sure that would work in today&#8217;s market, 25 years later.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schoffstall</title>
		<link>http://www.trenthergenrader.com/wordpress/2006/07/24/stoke-stoke-stoke/comment-page-1/#comment-5737</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schoffstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 03:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=512#comment-5737</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know whether you read Harry Potter, but the first novel is structured as a series of self-contained short stories. Each chapter introduces a new problem and finally solves it, but also advances the characters&#039; understanding of a larger problem that the novel as a whole solves. I admired the technique when I first read the book. The second HP novel is structured like a conventional novel, and that&#039;s all the further I got with the series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know whether you read Harry Potter, but the first novel is structured as a series of self-contained short stories. Each chapter introduces a new problem and finally solves it, but also advances the characters&#8217; understanding of a larger problem that the novel as a whole solves. I admired the technique when I first read the book. The second HP novel is structured like a conventional novel, and that&#8217;s all the further I got with the series.</p>
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